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Posted: September 4, 2010 08:40 am  | |||||
     IRC Nickname: Fire Lion Sword Group: Emeritus Posts: 1189 Member No.: 103 Joined: January 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 3    | God or not... life has humbled me to an extent that I wouldn't completely reject either theory without referring to my own lack of knowledge. And I would have thought that was a respectable approach to take on the issue. However, it's beginning to seem more apparent to me that it doesn't matter how liberal I can choose to act; if I display any inclination to the opposite ideal, I'm most often "wrong". I'm not religious - I'm not Christian - because I don't believe in science. I'm Christian quite simply because I choose to be. In a life without guarantee of truth, any belief in relation to the larger picture doesn't go without its risks. An appreciation of atheism not excluded. By nature, science grows -- and it will continue to grow. It's an examination and determination of all that's finite; it's an amazing thing. And it's more or less for this reason, in my opinion, that it will also never be able disprove a God. Assuming that it was within its purpose to do so. I personally believe science is a direct result of God. That's the interpretation I decide to go by. I can still respect and acknowledge the elegance of the concept of Evolution or the Big Bang. And I wouldn't take the initiative to put people down for their belief therein. When it comes to the issue, I'm either passive or defensive: That's the method I am most comfortable with. -------------------- --------- 獅の炎 ----------  ----------- 忍☯者 ----------- | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 09:33 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Group: Clan Ally Posts: 6 Member No.: 2374 Joined: August 29, 2010 Total Events Attended: 0 | I see why you are putting people into groups, however i do not think it is neccesary. I myself was once "brainwash" as you say into being christian, However it wasn't malicous or anything. I chose to do it because it was what my friends were doing at the time, and it wasn't all this "old women singing hyms" kind of thing. It was full of young people, playing modern music that praised a higher being. Their was no pressure telling us what to believe or what not to believe, it was just something where we went, had fun and discussed the possibility of a higher being and what we believe. I still believed in scientifical facts, because i was also "brainwashed" into science from school. After a few months i stopped, just because i didn't want to do it anymore. I hold a very scientifical view, however do not oppose that they're could be a higher being. Theyre are hundreds of theories about how the universe was created, how it works and why we are here. I believe in science of our earth, and science of the universe, i strive to learn more about how our own planet works, and how the universe works. I study Environmental science.biology and Chemistry at A levels, whcih explain what is on our earth, and why it is like that. I want to learn more, but i believe that with theories, there is always going to be something wrong with the theory. With faith and religion, and i believe that people in the past have strived to explain why something is, and as science comes to explain more things, Religion explains less and "fills in the blanks". People want to know "Why are we here" etc and so some turn to religion, others turn to science to explain "Why". It is just how people decide to explain how they perceive the world around them. -Out -------------------- | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 11:50 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: ZurvivorMan Group: Emeritus Posts: 1098 Member No.: 1528 Joined: December 6, 2008 Total Events Attended: 99 | If time, space, matter, energy, symmetry, proportion and the ability to perceive and respond to such elements of existence came from nothing, then what is the originator of nothing???? Yes i believe in God -------------------- You don't have to feel like a waste of space You're original, cannot be replaced If you only knew what the future holds After a hurricane comes a rainbow Maybe you're reason why all the doors are closed So you can open one that leads you to the perfect road  | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 02:21 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Stokenut Group: Guest Posts: 2062 Member No.: 805 Joined: June 10, 2008 Total Events Attended: 112 |
lol, Gravity. The beginning of our universe wasn't the beginning of everything. There are potentially as many as 11 dimensions. We can perceive 3 of them, as we live in the third dimension. Any happenings in the fourth, fifth, etc, dimensions go unseen and unnoticed by us. Just the same as a hypothetical two dimensional creature would be completely unaware of a three dimensional object hovering over it. There are between 6 and 9 dimensions in our universe, the rest are only explainable in the area outside it. Mathematics can prove this, but because we don't have a stupidly large telescope to take a picture with, retarded Christians take on the whole "YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT THERE ISN'T" attitude.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory Moving on, I do take back my comparison between Christians and those three groups, I was tired, had been up for about 14 hours training Construction, however my point remains. As time progresses, there is an increasingly high percentage of intellectuals moving from the "Belief in a higher power" category to the "Atheist" category. There have been various surveys done to demonstrate this, one particular survey mapped the declining percentage of Scientists that believe in God over recent decades.
Full article can be found http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm I'm also certain that there is a link between intelligence and faith. Whereby more intelligent members of society no longer believe in a higher power and as you gradually move down the scale, you reach stupid people with an IQ of around 80 that have a much higher percentage of religious people. I put my faith in Science. Because of Science, I've been able to live a very comfortable and happy life. I struggle to find any attributes of my life that could have even been influenced by a higher power which cannot be explained by chance. The intense emotions we feel such as love or anger can be paralleled to the awe of looking up into the stars at night and merely appreciating what we know is out there. -------------------- Over 6 years of history and friendship, deleted over a difference in an opinion. --- Challenge any creationist to a debate. They'll run away and aggressively accuse you of "attacking" them and their "beliefs". I'm sorry, please, keep teaching our kids that they'll burn in hell if they don't believe. Mutilate their genitals against their will while you're at it. Keep influencing politics and holding back vital scientific research. I'll just keep my mouth shut to "respect" your "beliefs". | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 04:18 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Snowzak Group: Emeritus Posts: 1193 Member No.: 5 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 67 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time -- I'm agnostic, and very close to being convinced that God is just an emanation of what humans believe to be best in them. Let's face it, humans were stupid when religions were invented, they needed something to cling on to, as a way to survive without becoming insane. --------------------  London RL Meeting attendee - Paris RL meeting attendee Joined WG in October 2005 - Original DG - Ex-Raid Leader Proud Council Member from October 21st 2007 to May 19th 2008 | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 04:32 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 | Humans have never been stupid. It takes more genius to become the dominant species than to stay that way. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 04:39 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Snowzak Group: Emeritus Posts: 1193 Member No.: 5 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 67 | Fine, we always have been geniuses. But geniuses living 5k years back don't have the same experience. Replace stupid by ignorant if that fits you. (And I agree, inventing religions was probably the most intelligent social idea humans have had to stay the dominant species) -------------------- London RL Meeting attendee - Paris RL meeting attendee Joined WG in October 2005 - Original DG - Ex-Raid Leader Proud Council Member from October 21st 2007 to May 19th 2008 | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 05:17 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: DG_Keanu Group: Council Posts: 4782 Member No.: 2033 Joined: August 25, 2009 Total Events Attended: 173 |
But do we really need religion to survive? --------------------  [05:42] <+WG_Keanu> I think I got a semi just looking at the pic [05:42] <%kat> same | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 05:36 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 | Religion is a human invention. God is not. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 07:36 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Fire Lion Sword Group: Emeritus Posts: 1189 Member No.: 103 Joined: January 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 3 |
I don't see your point. Can you please elaborate?
It's complicated. I'm religious, but I can still criticize other religious people for being stupid or irrational. They may hold the same beliefs as me, but they likely go about it incorrectly, which is why I may criticize them. Religion is significantly based around how you develop your quality of faith, not just what your faith is. That's why you can find religious people who can debate and logically support their beliefs, and also find those who don't give a damn about openmindedness and spew philosophical phrases without even remotely knowing the significance behind them. Generally, in social categorization, they're put in the same room as me, despite whether I disagree with their methods and actions. They're opportune targets for those who oppose religion; opportune targets for tools like sattire. And it's unfortunate that respectable people can often get associated with them. It's wrong to hold religion accountable for physchotic religious people, just as it is for atheism and those who commit atrocities without (or in spite of) belief in a higher power. Both sides are tempted by it and guilty of it at some point, but it's really only useful for arguing dirty. On another note. Science is an official field of study, pursuable by education... whereas a religion is generally only a religion. Logically, in this regard, there is bound to be more uneducated religious people. In any case, to me, there seems something wrong with implying that the likelihood of religion increases upon decent of the intellectual ladder. Not as much morally but logically. Are we referring to the direction of those that are genuinely mentally ill, or the subjective standard for what is considered "stupid"? -------------------- --------- 獅の炎 ---------- ----------- 忍☯者 ----------- | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 08:09 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Jouke[WG] Group: Ex-Member Posts: 153 Member No.: 2326 Joined: July 24, 2010 Total Events Attended: 16 | Science win --------------------  | ||||
Posted: September 4, 2010 08:53 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Kiwi011 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3052 Member No.: 40 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 | I think the only reason he doesn't believe in god is because he cant communicate like a normal person and only believes in technology because without it, he'd be fucked. lul and I dont feel like being in this debate, wg debates go on forever......and never change anything, no matter how ignorant the persons are in it or the facts/opinions of what is being said.... personally I believe in a God, theres something up there, without something like that I do not believe it to be possible for a galaxy such as this to exist (especially because theory's such as the big bang theory are artificial and incomplete) and because I don't think we would have been able to invent such a powerful system of language and life by chance alone. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 12:48 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Sativas Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 2255 Member No.: 1305 Joined: August 29, 2008 Total Events Attended: 155 | I think a lot of the posts on this topic could have been written a little better instead of flat out bashing on people. Thanks BTO and David for making quality posts without bashing. Theirs more quality posts then that on this topic, but those are just a couple of them I read. That's really all I have to say since I'm not that interested in a science / religion debate. --------------------  The Ultimate Skilling and Combat Badges Updated June 17th, 2011        | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 02:22 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Zooby Group: Guest Posts: 1669 Member No.: 1464 Joined: November 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 109 |
Why does it have to be "God" that has made something out of nothing? Why can't it be aliens? Or maybe ants did it. Tbh religion is a waste of time. This whole debate is pointless, what have Christians proven? Science ftw. Haters gonna hate my bluntness. -------------------- A Revolution without dance is a Revolution not worth having at all Lightbulbs die my sweet, I will depart | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 02:56 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Lefty Group: Emeritus Posts: 3340 Member No.: 1055 Joined: June 30, 2008 Total Events Attended: 211 | @Stokenut's theory on the level of religion increasing as the level of intelligence decreases. I heard of a study that tested this out in a class of mine called Theory of Knowledge. One of my fellow students pointed it out, and began a whole debate with my teacher, who happens to also be a minister. I found it quite unique to find the theory/idea/saying to be included here too. I did a quick Google Search of the terms to find this site. I don't know if it is the exact study that my classmate pointed out, but it follows some of the same results that he stated. http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm Personally, I am not too sure on my religious standpoint. I do not necessarily believe in a God that created everyone and then determines whether we have a good or bad afterlife, but I do not completely disagree with religion as a whole. To generalize my beliefs, I am ignorant to my afterlife and the creation of mankind. --------------------      | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 03:45 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Fire Lion Sword Group: Emeritus Posts: 1189 Member No.: 103 Joined: January 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 3 |
You had to ruin a decent thread... In response to your (rhetorical) question: It's going to sound ridiculous, but I'm hoping you'll be mature enough to understand: If an alien or ant is capable of spontaneously creating something out of nothing... it can be considered a creator or a "god". Not everyone who believes in a god is referring specifically to a being of humanoid characteristics -- or animal, for that matter. Some people might not even associate an image with what they believe is God. God doesn't have to be a man in the sky, an alien, or an ant. Whatever it is that is capable of deliberately creating the universe can fit the definition of God. -------------------- --------- 獅の炎 ---------- ----------- 忍☯者 ----------- | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 07:51 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Wayne|Eregion2 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3087 Member No.: 156 Joined: January 25, 2008 Total Events Attended: 8 | In reference to Stoke's first post on the thread, I fall into the "brainwashed from childhood" category. What I've done -- and it took me well over a day to convince people of this on another forum -- is divide how I approach issues like this. From one hand, I'm a Christian who straight-up believes God created everything (and, if you're into paradoxes, instantaneously caused himself to also exist) in six days, and literally took a day off. Any discrepancies or conflicts in a literal reading of the Bible I chalk up to translation errors or the inability of an imperfect mind to grasp the perfection of God. From the other hand, science is badass. The conept of the big bang and other theories interests me immensely at an intellectual level, and even though I do not believe they are true as a point of faith, I have no trouble getting really excited about them. Hell, I'm probably the only person alive who believes in Creationism -and- who wouldn't mind publishing a book or paper furthering theories that go against my faith. What I find unique in myself (or rather, hilariously rare anywhere else) is I'm not trying to make those two interests a unified whole. I'm not trying to cram religion into science or try and hybrid Evolutionary theory into Christianity. I believe science should not persecute religion, and religion should not persecute science. Leaving both to pursue their own paths unhindered by ignorant bias from anyone is the only way they'll amount to anything. And paradoxically, I bet they'll both end up at the same place in the end. I don't have a chance to read much into this thread right now, but I hope I do soon. Looks like fun. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 08:23 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Fire Lion Sword Group: Emeritus Posts: 1189 Member No.: 103 Joined: January 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 3 |
No, I agree with you... You're not the only one. As I said earlier, I can respect theories such as the Big Bang or Evolution, even if I personally am not convinced they're true, because they are fascinating concepts that stimulate the mind. -------------------- --------- 獅の炎 ---------- ----------- 忍☯者 ----------- | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 09:21 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Sithofwookie Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2842 Member No.: 815 Joined: June 11, 2008 Total Events Attended: 48 | All the cool kids don't believe in anything nor care. I just live life. I don't need anything else. All I know is that I'm here and I'm going to try to make the best of it. Religion and science just complicate things  --------------------  | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 11:08 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Kung_man149 Group: Higher Guardian Posts: 1054 Member No.: 2111 Joined: October 30, 2009 Total Events Attended: 79 |
+1 good sir. -------------------- Taken❒ Single❒ Mad✔ <+Mark``> i think the brothers GF is going into labour <+Mark``> I WANNA WATCH YU-GI-OH   | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 02:33 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Zlat Group: Clan Friend Posts: 2781 Member No.: 9 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 60 | tl;dr He's gay. That's all. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 06:57 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Fire Lion Sword Group: Emeritus Posts: 1189 Member No.: 103 Joined: January 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 3 |
The last time I lived like that I was 12. lol Those were the days.  -------------------- --------- 獅の炎 ---------- ----------- 忍☯者 ----------- | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 07:06 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: dieyou2000 Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 711 Member No.: 1300 Joined: August 28, 2008 Total Events Attended: 158 | First a few things. Gene: From what I can gather, you do not believe in a humanoid god as described in most of the major religions, especially western ones. From what I can gather, you believe in what I can only describe as analogous to "the force" in Star Wars. You also stated though that you are "your own denomination of Christian." A Christian, be definition, believes that Jesus Christ is the son of and a human incarnation of the god of the bible. In conclusion, you seem to be at odds with yourself claiming you can't or don't know exactly what god is, but claiming you are a Christian. Also you said humans are geniuses. This is flat-out bullshit. We may be very intelligent beings, but unfortunately we are causing my devastation and destruction to this planet than any other life-form that has ever existed on this planet. This is a subject that requires a lot of debate and talking, but if anybody ever feels like discussing it let me know. If you want to know my background on this read Daniel Quinn's Ishmael series and Derrick Jensen's Endgame series. Stokenut/Steve: While I agree with most of your points, there is no need to be an asshole about it. I will explain why I think you are going overboard in my own response to this thread. Now for my two cents about this topic. I am an atheist. I hate with a passion organized religion. I neither like or dislike spirituality. This is my problem. I do not mind at all if you want to believe in some higher power. I personally do not find it plausible, but I have no problems with other people doing this. But in my opinion, spirituality is something that should be personal. To me the most religious experience I have ever had is playing a good game of tennis, baseball, or hiking in the Rocky Mountains or Yosemite National Park. When I start having a problem is when people pledge their lives to a holy book that leads them to things like The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, racism and slavery, bigotry against homosexuals, and proselytizing or telling people that unless they accept *insert your god here*, they are hopeless, lost, and will never be truly complete as a person. Believe in whatever the fuck you want, I don't give a pinch of shit, but DO NOT FUCKING IMPOSE YOUR VIEWS ON OTHER PEOPLE. That's where I run into huge problems. Organized religion turns spirituality into this mindless shit and is the cornerstone of so much division in this world. Think about how many wars have been started over religion. Totally willing to continue this debate with anybody through PM or anything just let me know. I'll reply here, too. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 08:17 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Mtoise Group: Ex-Member Posts: 715 Member No.: 1691 Joined: February 5, 2009 Total Events Attended: 60 |
Well it's not like he can make the news by partaking in kicking the living s*** out of someone in an attack of rage! However that could be eventful! -------------------- "Do not believe everything that is written on the internet; for it may just be a bag of lies" - George Washington 1873 - On the long winding road to 99 slayer. 98 to 99 Slay without killing a thing. 22/28 effigy's PM me if you can assist Construction Effigy's | ||||
Posted: September 5, 2010 08:45 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Sum41xx Group: Emeritus Posts: 630 Member No.: 102 Joined: January 3, 2008 Total Events Attended: 0 | I don't believe in what Hawking has to offer about God not existing. I'm agnostic just so you know where my views are coming from and going in this reply. But here goes: Hawking says that the universe is expanding itself and can also contract on itself. I recently saw a show on the discovery channel stating this. What I'd like to point your attention to is that Science also believes in an unseen force known as dark matter and dark energy. Both are known to disrupt galaxies as well as the reason for being why the universe is expanding. Which I believe. But why is it that scientists can believe in an unseen force of matter but not believe in an unseen being? Like you said yourself stoke, there are quite a few dimension; more than we can actually feel and experience. So why would there not be a being in one of those dimensions who created all the other dimensions? I mean, even down to the universe being what created us, which honestly I believe could be VERY TRUE. But it still makes me ponder on what created the universe, planets, solar systems, galaxies; even these dimensions? Sure there's not really a theory or law on it, but I like to believe that everything originates from something. And there's no way that we can say that the universe originated from itself. That's somewhat silly. Even scientists know that in order for something to exist it must have some sort of energy to assist in making it exist. But where does this energy come from? It again, cannot create itself. Another perspective that I recommend you at least CONSIDER is this: Go back 1000 years. Back then, people believed that the ocean ended, and partially due to that reason, most, if not all people were unaware of the American continent existing. I can say with confidence that it's simply because no one had been there to prove it to themselves that it did. They just figured if they went to far at sea that they would fall off of the earth. They used fairly decent forms of technologies such as telescopes back then but could not figure out that there was a huge mass of land on this planet. So the whole point of what I'm saying is don't believe everything he's saying. 1000 years from now people will probably be laughing at a lot of the things that he theorized about. No human or scientific vessel has been within 1/1000000000000000 miles of the distance between here and the end of the universe, let alone another star system. Yet scientists come up with these theories to shut down an existence of there being a god. Either way, like some one else stated. We equally believe in one thing. Faith. Faith is your belief in what is theorized by Stephen Hawking right now, but being proven 500 years from now to be true. Whether you want to believe it or not stoke, the only big difference between you and a Christian is that you chose to point your faith in a different direction. While it may seem logical to you, it can seem not logical to others, and likewise to Christian people. Just respect their beliefs and where they chose to center their faith is all. --------------------   Proud WG member since December 2003 | ||||
"God did not create the Universe", Says Hawking