I want to work up and run for Council now just to find out how the heck this works.
 
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I understand, from being in your position previous to today--that of having to trust in evidence you cannot see yourself--I do not expect you to accept my conclusion.

It may be some consolation to know that I am putting the evidence up to a good measure of scrutiny. I am not going to tell you the evidence is 100%. There is a chance, albeit very very small, that Mager is innocent. Think about it though: Mager was leaving and had little incentive not to leak, he complained about not letting Zlatan into IRC conforming his close ties with him, the council has near-100% proof that Mager leaked info, and if all that is not enough he even ADMITTED he leaked (09:33 - Queen_III - I told an exmember some stuff 09:33 - Queen_III - Nothing serious). Not to mention that Zlatan was in the ending options of CR in the PKRI today, whereupon they subsequently piled him.

The real problem though is that the members cannot be involved in this without ruining the techniques for catching spies. Thus if you want members to have voice in this decision then you have a choice to make: either we have member participation in this process or we catch spies, I am afraid it is impossible to have both.
 
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I don't give a fuck HOW he caught the spy to be honest, I have no idea how his spy catching techniques are directly relevant to the dialogue released by Flippie. Maybe you could explain it to my dumb ass please?




Brandon

umm..if you don't giv a f about how he got cought..why are you asking me to explain it. Just have a little faith in your leadership. They wouldn't ban an elite member for no reason.
 
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As a leader, I am going to lead in the general clan's interest, and choose to keep the security over your selfish demands.

1. If you can't trust us, leave.
2. Robbie worked for hours and hours on it and for what? So you could end it with one glimpse? I don't think so.
3. More damage will be done by allowing spies in WG than by proving that you are being led honestly.
 
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Well, all I can say is that he gave our war information to Zlat.
We can't be sure if he simply gave Zlat the single post or the account, but either way, Zlat knew.
 
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I think that is a reasonable request, however the dialogue itself cannot be released. Here is what I know: So far there is NOT any information that confirms Mager was a spy. He was not working for any other clan, and he was not trying to reveal information in order to get our events crashed.

What he did was leak information to an ex-member. Ill repeat again what he himself admitted to:

09:33 - Queen_III - I told an exmember some stuff
09:33 - Queen_III - Nothing serious

He apparently does not consider leaking a serious offense, however I think most people here would agree leaking important war or other critical information warrants a ban--even if it is leaked to someone who does not intend to do WG harm. Leaking has to be taken as seriously as spying because we do not know what the person leaked to is going to do with the information. More importantly, leaking is a huge violation of trust that we all put in eachother. Imagine if we made the punishment for leaking a warning or a suspension; no one would take it seriously and we could seldom have a raid or war that was not crashed because of people telling their friends (who they thought they could trust).

I am sure if you talked to Mager he would admit most of this himself.


To Joe: I would be untruthful if I did not say I was a bit ambivalent about this method of catching spies myself. Think of it this way though, before catching spies depended a lot on circumstantial evidence or just evidence that could be wrong. In terms of separating those who are actually spies with those who are innocent, this is a huge step forward. Now we have near-100% proof--it is not based on guesses or probabilities. Take that away and I fear we may go back to the old fashioned method of catching spies, where paranoia leads to witch hunts, innocent members being banned, and a climate of distrust in the clan.


 
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There is no proof he leaked it to Zlatan, you only said it proved his account leaked.
Yet you'll unban Mugger after what he did?
Makes sense to me also. /sarcasm
 
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July 5, 2007 - June 27, 2011

I am sorry, but that was the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. Here are the clan rules:

Do Not Compromise The Clan's Privacy

* Do not publicly talk about sensitive clan information such as event times.
* Do not privately provide clan information to people outside the clan.
* If told something privately by a member, you must not state that information publicly without that member's permission.
* Do not invite people to our events without permission from the event's leader.

Notice, no where does it say anything about intent to do harm to the clan. A leak is a leak, regardless of if the intent. If this was not the case members could simply defend themselves by saying, "I did not mean for our war to get crashed, I really thought I could trust my friend with the information." When the clan posts information, it is trusted that you do not leak it to anyone outside the clan, friend or foe.

Yes, he was an elite and did a lot for WG, but that makes the offense worse because he is role model and should be familiar with all the rules. Elites do not receive special treatment, infact the reverse is true, they are held up to higher standards.

To Joe: I agree, I do not think Mugger's ban should have been traded for info on a Mager leaking. However, that is a different matter than if Mager did leak and deserves a ban based on that information.
 
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I am sorry, but that was the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. Here are the clan rules:

Do Not Compromise The Clan's Privacy

* Do not publicly talk about sensitive clan information such as event times.
* Do not privately provide clan information to people outside the clan.
* If told something privately by a member, you must not state that information publicly without that member's permission.
* Do not invite people to our events without permission from the event's leader.

Notice, no where does it say anything about intent to do harm to the clan. A leak is a leak, regardless of if the intent. If this was not the case members could simply defend themselves by saying, "I did not mean for our war to get crashed, I really thought I could trust my friend with the information." When the clan posts information, it is trusted that you do not leak it to anyone outside the clan, friend or foe.

Yes, he was an elite and did a lot for WG, but that makes the offense worse because he is role model and should be familiar with all the rules. Elites do not receive special treatment, infact the reverse is true, they are held up to higher standards.

To Joe: I agree, I do not think Mugger's ban should have been traded for info on a Mager leaking. However, that is a different matter than if Mager did leak and deserves a ban based on that information.

Well then he is only a victim of his own innocence and trust, in no way did he believe he was compromising the safety of our clan. Like you said sometimes wars get crashed cause members thought they could trust their friends, but should man be judged by his action or his intent? I always thought it should be his intent, it all ends up being very complicated. I can see where you're coming from but Flippie is not a threat to this clan and thus should not be banned. Even if he was given ex-member he wouldn't have much knowledge to compromise the integrity of WG.

P.S. Has anyone spoken to Flippie recently? Does he even want Ex-member? I'd like to know his opinion on the matter.



Brandon
 
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Ex-Wilderness Leader of WG.

I'll always be here for the people that need me.

RS Accounts: Sadcon1, Tttkaab & T Dwag

Good points, I pretty much agree. If you put it in terms of who deserves to be banned more, Mugger or Mager, I would likewise pick Mugger because I do not think he should have been unbanned in the first place. It sends a message that bans can be traded.

However, that is not to say I do not think Mager deserves to be banned for leaking.

To Dwag:

Ussually I would agree with you, that intent is more important than action, however in this case there are three other factors to consider.

The first is preventing people from leaking. People need to take leaking seriously, and the only way to do this is to make sure that anyone who leaks critical information gets banned.

The second is that linking up leaking with malicious intent would prove very difficult to punish. How would we establish that the leak contributed to harm coming to the clan or that there was bad intentions involved? Again, no one would take leaking seriously if they could get out of it by claiming they were a 'victim' of their own innocence and trust.

The third is the issue of clan trust. We all trust eachother to keep the information here inside the clan, and leaking is a violation of that trust. Even without any harm coming out of it, the act of leaking alone shows a huge disrespect to the clan. It is the same as if your friend tells you a secret on the condition that you tell it to no one, and then you tell it to another friend who you know will not say anything. If the first friend finds out he/she will be mad not so much because the secret could have gotten out, but rather because of your complete lack of respect for his/her wishes.
 
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