I agree with this... we're all kind of biased if we haven't experienced the situation for ourselves really.

we're arbitrarily deciding ... that's why I said the mother should be responsible for the decision. They're the ones carrying the thing and once they know the risks and the situation they're in, THEY are the best person to make the decision of what she thinks is best for her child, and I agree with Rachy's side of things. Maybe from some point of view being born knowingly into a shit life is better than not being born at all... but I don't think a woman should be forced into childbirth against her will, which in turn is life-threatening. Pro-choice.
 
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[05:42] <+WG_Keanu> I think I got a semi just looking at the pic
[05:42] <%kat> same

would you abort a child that did not endanger your gf if it was in its 3rd trimester though......I don't believe life begins at conception but that once the baby has a heart beat imo its alive, its heart starts beating I think 20 days into the pregnancy... get it done before that....and gene, you could have always given the child to adoption. All i no is, i would rather e a depressed kid in a home than not experience life at all. Because life is life, and i enjoy living everyday, the laughs and the friends, putting a child up for adoption doesn't hurt them in any way in the long run.


p.s-O btw, Colin, its not your choice who lives or dies either just because u fucked it/she go fucked, once the baby has a beating heart, that child is alive, you should have thought about the consequences before hand. As you say its not a pro-life persons business, its not your choice either to kill a little baby who cant defend for themselves.
 
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would you abort a child that did not endanger your gf if it was in its 3rd trimester though......I don't believe life begins at conception but that once the baby has a heart beat imo its alive, its heart starts beating I think 20 days into the pregnancy... get it done before that....and gene, you could have always given the child to adoption. All i no is, i would rather e a depressed kid in a home than not experience life at all. Because life is life, and i enjoy living everyday, the laughs and the friends, putting a child up for adoption doesn't hurt them in any way in the long run.


p.s-O btw, Colin, its not your choice who lives or dies either just because u fucked it/she go fucked, once the baby has a beating heart, that child is alive, you should have thought about the consequences before hand. As you say its not a pro-life persons business, its not your choice either to kill a little baby who cant defend for themselves.

Exactly. It's not my choice. It's the woman's CHOICE. That's the whole fucking point.

And yes, I would still choose to have an abortion if the fetus was in the third trimester. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances that can arise and force a woman to have an abortion. Once you open your mind and start realizing this, the better off we'll all be.


Another interesting point to ponder:

Why is it that the "pro-life" crowd seem to be the ones that want to go to war so often? Otherwise known in this country as Republicans. So eager to start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people, BUT GOD HELP US IF SOMEONE HAS AN ABORTION. Cuz you know, killing a fetus that doesn't even realize it's alive is somehow worse than killing a million Iraqis in a pointless war.
 
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Proud WG member from January 2006 - Fall 2009

would you abort a child that did not endanger your gf if it was in its 3rd trimester though......I don't believe life begins at conception but that once the baby has a heart beat imo its alive, its heart starts beating I think 20 days into the pregnancy... get it done before that....and gene, you could have always given the child to adoption. All i no is, i would rather e a depressed kid in a home than not experience life at all. Because life is life, and i enjoy living everyday, the laughs and the friends, putting a child up for adoption doesn't hurt them in any way in the long run.


p.s-O btw, Colin, its not your choice who lives or dies either just because u fucked it/she go fucked, once the baby has a beating heart, that child is alive, you should have thought about the consequences before hand. As you say its not a pro-life persons business, its not your choice either to kill a little baby who cant defend for themselves.

Exactly. It's not my choice. It's the woman's CHOICE. That's the whole fucking point.

And yes, I would still choose to have an abortion if the fetus was in the third trimester. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances that can arise and force a woman to have an abortion. Once you open your mind and start realizing this, the better off we'll all be.


Another interesting point to ponder:

Why is it that the "pro-life" crowd seem to be the ones that want to go to war so often? Otherwise known in this country as Republicans. So eager to start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people, BUT GOD HELP US IF SOMEONE HAS AN ABORTION. Cuz you know, killing a fetus that doesn't even realize it's alive is somehow worse than killing a million Iraqis in a pointless war.

I hate to get off topic but I found the stab at Republicans a little unnecessary, as most of your baits are. And no the "pro-life crowd" doesn't want to go to war so often. Nobody does. Although I'm sure there is some wacko's that do like war and killing shit, it's most certainly not the majority. Most Republicans are in general more apt to go to war as an option than most democrats, but that doesn't mean that they like war.

And try to keep this clean people, I was quite appalled at some of the meanness in this topic towards one another, especially from some people that I know are better than that.


 
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Yeah.

Holy shit edit

I see both sides of the argument pretty well now. Still pro-choice.
 
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[05:42] <+WG_Keanu> I think I got a semi just looking at the pic
[05:42] <%kat> same

@ point 3, I don't think governments would do something like that (At least at this time) because of the whole economic problem, A lot (Minority but still a lot) of women might give up their babies just for the money/they might even prostitute themselves just so they can make extra money, which would really cost the government a lot
 
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MSN: [email protected]
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Proud to be ex-Wilderness Guardian.

would you abort a child that did not endanger your gf if it was in its 3rd trimester though......I don't believe life begins at conception but that once the baby has a heart beat imo its alive, its heart starts beating I think 20 days into the pregnancy... get it done before that....and gene, you could have always given the child to adoption. All i no is, i would rather e a depressed kid in a home than not experience life at all. Because life is life, and i enjoy living everyday, the laughs and the friends, putting a child up for adoption doesn't hurt them in any way in the long run.


p.s-O btw, Colin, its not your choice who lives or dies either just because u fucked it/she go fucked, once the baby has a beating heart, that child is alive, you should have thought about the consequences before hand. As you say its not a pro-life persons business, its not your choice either to kill a little baby who cant defend for themselves.

Exactly. It's not my choice. It's the woman's CHOICE. That's the whole fucking point.

And yes, I would still choose to have an abortion if the fetus was in the third trimester. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances that can arise and force a woman to have an abortion. Once you open your mind and start realizing this, the better off we'll all be.


Another interesting point to ponder:

Why is it that the "pro-life" crowd seem to be the ones that want to go to war so often? Otherwise known in this country as Republicans. So eager to start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people, BUT GOD HELP US IF SOMEONE HAS AN ABORTION. Cuz you know, killing a fetus that doesn't even realize it's alive is somehow worse than killing a million Iraqis in a pointless war.

its not the woman's choice to play god and decide who lives and who dies either, you failed to comprehend what I was saying.
 
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america a free country, thinking that itself is a joke. What world are you talking about?
 
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^this


Kiwi, you're failing pretty hard right now bro. I knew exactly what you're saying so don't insult my intelligence ever again. Nobody is pretending to be god. I don't think you understand the circumstances that people are in when they make these tough decisions. Nobody WANTS to have an abortion. But some people HAVE to. Get a fucking grip.
 
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Proud WG member from January 2006 - Fall 2009

^this


Kiwi, you're failing pretty hard right now bro. I knew exactly what you're saying so don't insult my intelligence ever again. Nobody is pretending to be god. I don't think you understand the circumstances that people are in when they make these tough decisions. Nobody WANTS to have an abortion. But some people HAVE to. Get a fucking grip.

No one has to. There's adoption.

Honestly lets say you were a baby and your mom had a 1 night stand and that was the reason you were made, an accident. You shouldn't be their, you freak. She aborts you. You never were able to live, smile or even cry. We may not remember being a baby but I am sure we still feel pain, and I bet the pain from being pulled limb from limb out of "your mother" would suck a lot more than someone calling you trash and an accident, you could rise above it, not to mention you have another day to smile, and laugh...

No one wants to have an abortion, but they do all the same.

None should play god. People need to live with the consequences and if they can not support a child, put him/her up for adoption, their are schools, free schools for girls who are pregnant. Just because, " Zomg it will ruin my social life, people will think I'm a whore, what will I tell my parents." Those are not justifiable reasons to kill a child.

Wanna no something, my family's old cadet was pregnant, her boyfriend said he would pay her to have the baby, she got it aborted anyway because "That fucker was going to be painful." Well fuck that, should have thought about it before you fucked a guy knowing the risks.

Unless a child endangers the life of the mother, abortion should not be a valid measure. We are not barbarians who should kill others on a whim. Human nature is disgusting.

And explain to me why anyone would "Have to" get an abortion. Most jobs will give a pregnant mother time off for about 6 months I do believe to settle in with her pregnancy so loosing a job is out of the question, o, it was a mistake is not a valid reason either..... DO you have any idea how many charities their are for pregnant women who wont get an abortion? A Lot.
 
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@ point 3, I don't think governments would do something like that (At least at this time) because of the whole economic problem, A lot (Minority but still a lot) of women might give up their babies just for the money/they might even prostitute themselves just so they can make extra money, which would really cost the government a lot

I thought that too when I read Rach's third point... It also reminded me of this. Yes, its a bit long, but I believe that if you read it, you'll get where I was reminded of it from...
 
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Thanks Sam for an awesome job and an awesome wait!

I guess your personal rights as a human being don't kick in until you've got a signed birth certificate. Sad really. The number of abortions in the United States since 1973 is currently equal to 11.5% of the total population of the country. It's also negatively effected the economy with an estimated 50-70 trillion in unrealized GDP (and also galvanizing to the wreck of Soc. Security).

When you're entrusted with something as fragile as a helpless human life, ending it shouldn't be an option outside severe medical complications to the mother. I know it sucks, but sometimes you just have to take responsibility for having sex. I think I said this earlier about using clan spies, but you should never do anything that could ultimately result in something you can't handle.

If you can't support a kid put that dick somewhere else.
 
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I guess your personal rights as a human being don't kick in until you've got a signed birth certificate. Sad really. The number of abortions in the United States since 1973 is currently equal to 11.5% of the total population of the country. It's also negatively effected the economy with an estimated 50-70 trillion in unrealized GDP (and also galvanizing to the wreck of Soc. Security).

When you're entrusted with something as fragile as a helpless human life, ending it shouldn't be an option outside severe medical complications to the mother. I know it sucks, but sometimes you just have to take responsibility for having sex. I think I said this earlier about using clan spies, but you should never do anything that could ultimately result in something you can't handle.

If you can't support a kid put that dick somewhere else.

you say shit a lot better than me. *tear*
 
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"Life" - as it is - is all around us. Earlier Colin cynically pointed out that masturbation could be considered murder. Extrapolating from that, you could come to believe that every "reproductive-aged" female you pass on the street without impregnating is a willful act of murder. I get a kick out of thinking I'm committing arboricide every time I mow the lawn, but that's going entirely in the wrong direction. The concept isn't about life but about human life - a new human being who will feel pain and love, anger and fear, passion and loathing. I honestly, sincerely believe that at the moment of fertilization the act of bringing a new person into the world has taken place, and that any steps to stop the process from that moment forward is wrong.

But I really like seeing how you think Sam. You're the first person I've ever seen/read who had a similar thought process in approaching the issue, even though we ended up at completely different conclusions. Yours is very evolutionary in thought (life mutating into a new human being, but not changing its basic state of being alive) while mine is more spiritual (the concept of a new human being having a "reserved" - as it were - consciousness/soul from the moment of fertilization, even if they don't realize that consciousness until later in their life). Very curious, I'm amazed to actually see a new (or maybe more-thought-out) train of thought behind the pro-choice stance.

But out of curiosity, I imagine the set of "rational causes" related to having an abortion is different than the one you'd apply to ending a life after birth. Where do you think the change takes place? At birth? When the 'fetus" has a functioning heart or brain? How late is "too late" to have an abortion when - in the end - we all qualify as a "mutated... more advanced kind of alive"? At some point natural law has to kick in and protect a life, or we'd be letting people off for murder right and left.
 
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Think of all those sperm you've murdered?
 
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Addition: After further reading of the journal article:

That measurement would include pregnancies that aborted before the Woman was even capable of being aware of it.

Source: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20051001/1243.html
 
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Ex-Secondary Leader, Ex-Council, The Original Forum Tech
Original Join Date: 23-October 04